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 Rooster5man's theories 
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You got it all wrong. What I was referring to was that it indicated the existance of a physically plausible description for what we perceive as "wisdom", "knowledge", or any other aspect of the mind, thus opening the possibility for these to affect the physical reality. You said wisdom was energy, did you not?

Sounds cool, but we have plausible descriptions: the brain. So what are we adding to the picture with this "energy?"

To avoid missunderstandings, (those can take pages to clear up) description for what? For how external stimuli is processed and responded to, or for how awareness arises from these functions? Just a question.



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If you don't call Karma "energy," what can it be called? Energy is created through Work, and Mur applied Force - Work - onto the structures he makes Karma Portals on...didn't he?


Well, fine to call it energy, but my simi-sciencey brain wants to know how it actually works, ya know?

I know exactly what you mean. I'm currently burning synapses trying to come up with something graspable. In the meantime, why don't you go and try to understand why light would still outrun you, even if you travelled at the speed of light, without ever changing speed?

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21 Dec 2012 12:08
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... a physically plausible description for what we perceive as "wisdom", "knowledge", or any other aspect of the mind, thus opening the possibility for these to affect the physical reality. You said wisdom was energy, did you not?

Sounds cool, but we have plausible descriptions: the brain. So what are we adding to the picture with this "energy?"

To avoid missunderstandings, (those can take pages to clear up) description for what? For how external stimuli is processed and responded to, or for how awareness arises from these functions? Just a question.

Ahh... AWARENESS is actually something this "energy" might help explain, as that is what we know the least about. Wisdom, knowledge and any other aspect of mind was what I was saying is = to brain. But of course, awareness would be an aspect of that, so here is a *star* for finding yet another of my hidden assumptions. XP XD


21 Dec 2012 12:40
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it indicated the existance of a physically plausible description for what we perceive as "wisdom", "knowledge", or any other aspect of the mind, thus opening the possibility for these to affect the physical reality. You said wisdom was energy, did you not?

If you mean in our world, then there's already a physical description of wisdom/knowledge and how it is transferred, through information theory. Information quantity is measured in terms of the Shannon entropy, which is not an energy, and is unrelated to it by any direct means.

But in the submachine world, there could perfectly be a physical law that some form of energy (wisdom energy?) and Shannon entropy are directly proportional by some constant (similar to Boltzmann's, but not dependent on any more variables such as temperature), and some of Rooster's considerations may be true in that scenario. Though I don't see how wisdom energy could be acquired by something as subjective as "learning experiences", it is still perfectly plausible since it's a fictional game, and Mateusz is free to choose any physics he wants for it :P It could be metaphysics too, as Redafro suggests.

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If you don't call Karma "energy," what can it be called? Energy is created through Work, and Mur applied Force - Work - onto the structures he makes Karma Portals on...didn't he?

That is true, once we have defined a karma energy we can define a karma force as the derivative of the energy respect to the distance, and viceversa. So portals that lead further away need more energy to be opened. And it is clear that you have to do something to open a portal, so inserting some kind of energy is not unreasonable. But what kind of energy it is, that's a very different issue.

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In the meantime, why don't you go and try to understand why light would still outrun you, even if you travelled at the speed of light, without ever changing speed?

Because the speed of light is constant in any frame of reference...


21 Dec 2012 13:02
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In the meantime, why don't you go and try to understand why light would still outrun you, even if you travelled at the speed of light, without ever changing speed?


Because the speed of light is constant in any frame of reference...

Everyone knows that. It's just my way saying that everything isn't graspable for us "semi-sciencey" people.

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it indicated the existance of a physically plausible description for what we perceive as "wisdom", "knowledge", or any other aspect of the mind, thus opening the possibility for these to affect the physical reality. You said wisdom was energy, did you not?


If you mean in our world, then there's already a physical description of wisdom/knowledge and how it is transferred, through information theory. Information quantity is measured in terms of the Shannon entropy, which is not an energy, and is unrelated to it by any direct means.

Sure you didn't make the same misstake as Redafro did?

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If you don't call Karma "energy," what can it be called? Energy is created through Work, and Mur applied Force - Work - onto the structures he makes Karma Portals on...didn't he?


That is true, once we have defined a karma energy we can define a karma force as the derivative of the energy respect to the distance, and viceversa. So portals that lead further away need more energy to be opened. And it is clear that you have to do something to open a portal, so inserting some kind of energy is not unreasonable. But what kind of energy it is, that's a very different issue.

But we don't even know how karma works. And keep in mind that the basic concept of relocation doesn't require energy.

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21 Dec 2012 18:51
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Everyone knows that. It's just my way saying that everything isn't graspable for us "semi-sciencey" people.

Okay, sorry :P

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Sure you didn't make the same misstake as Redafro did?

What mistake did I make? Is there anything I said wrong? :/

I said that knowledge can be interpreted in a physical way. I was agreeing with you in that. Or did you mean another thing?
And it's also true that there are no direct relation between energy and knowledge, as physicists interpret it now.

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But we don't even know how karma works. And keep in mind that the basic concept of relocation doesn't require energy.

True, we don't know, but that's why we are theorizing, not? :)

And relocation does require energy, kinetic energy to be more exact. Even bending spacetime to create a portal does require energy too, because energy is the source of the gravitational field, which is spacetime (a non-rigorous way of noticing this is that energy is equivalent to mass (E=mc^2), and mass causes gravity, which causes spacetime to bend).


21 Dec 2012 19:11
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Sure you didn't make the same misstake as Redafro did?


What mistake did I make? Is there anything I said wrong? :/

I said that knowledge can be interpreted in a physical way. I was agreeing with you in that. Or did you mean another thing?
And it's also true that there are no direct relation between energy and knowledge, as physicists interpret it now.


Oh, you were agreeing with me... sorry. And yes, there is no such relation between "physical" knowledge and energy. I've been talking about conscious knowledge/wisdom, or rather, whatever effect a more developed conscious mind has on the physical reality. (As I intend to keep this whithin the bounds of the laws of physics, or at least those we write)

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But we don't even know how karma works. And keep in mind that the basic concept of relocation doesn't require energy.

True, we don't know, but that's why we are theorizing, not?

And relocation does require energy, kinetic energy to be more exact. Even bending spacetime to create a portal does require energy too, because energy is the source of the gravitational field, which is spacetime (a non-rigorous way of noticing this is that energy is equivalent to mass (E=mc^2), and mass causes gravity, which causes spacetime to bend).


For the process itself, perhaps, but as long as no potential energy is aquired, there is no energy requirement in the "long term". Anything else would go against the very basics of physics.

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21 Dec 2012 21:56
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For the process itself, perhaps, but as long as no potential energy is aquired, there is no energy requirement in the "long term". Anything else would go against the very basics of physics.

What is the "long term"? If you wanna move something and you manage to do it, you will have spent some energy in the process, which made the thing move, and that thing will have that kinetic energy as long as it's moving. I can't imagine any relocation in which the body has no energy.

EDIT: oh wait, perhaps you mean that an already moving body doesn't require more energy than it already has? then yeah, that's true :)


21 Dec 2012 22:13
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To be precise, I meant that while accelerating a body requires energy, the body doesn't need to keep that energy once it's reached the intended position.

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21 Dec 2012 22:41
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To be precise, I meant that while accelerating a body requires energy, the body doesn't need to keep that energy once it's reached the intended position.

That's true too. But it isn't the same as saying we can move a body without changing the energy of the body at some point. That's what I understood when you said that a relocation doesn't require energy, sorry for my misunderstanding.

I hope we're not deviating too much from the theory discussion :B


21 Dec 2012 22:51
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O_O Meanwhile, I have no idea what you guys are talking about...I'll try to answer what I can XD

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And for what reason? It's plausible, but for an energy to just "change radically recently"...It could be spurred by the Mutations, but I can't say for sure.


I didn't mean the nature of the might have energy changed, only the form it took, so to say.


Could you elaborate? More on "form" - What "form" did the energy take that was "radically different" than before? (in your suggestion)

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You got it all wrong. What I was referring to was that it indicated the existance of a physically plausible description for what we perceive as "wisdom", "knowledge", or any other aspect of the mind, thus opening the possibility for these to affect the physical reality. You said wisdom was energy, did you not?


True, but bear with me, I just misinterpreted your post because I've never heard of the study before. I think I understand now though from this post:

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Information quantity is measured in terms of the Shannon entropy, which is not an energy, and is unrelated to it by any direct means.


It seems you're somewhat still debating this point with Vortex, but that's sort of what I was going on. I didn't have an explanation for the full understanding of Wisdom being an energy - just as how we don't know how Karma can be an energy, though it seems to be one. I was just throwing it out there, but you can elaborate on it as you wish, I have no problem with that.

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If you wish. I've chosen to see it as a "damaged foundation" of reality, rather than a "destructive force", that's all.


However, Karma is a "force," in the sense of that word - From what we understand, it's an energy. Elaborate on "foundation" then. I take "foundation" to mean the starting base for anything. So, in your suggestion, Karma was only the groundwork for the destruction it created, though not exactly creating that force itself? And please, if I'm mistaken, don't condescend, we're trying to have a discussion. I hate it when I'm told blatantly that I "don't understand," it'll make things much better.

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Well, fine to call it energy, but my simi-sciencey brain wants to know how it actually works, ya know? The terms end up sounding too ad hoc, like 50's scifi movies. "Good god, that is a laser!" "Correct Dr. Scott, a weapon capable of emitting a beam of pure antimatter." Ha! WTF??? (Yeah, that was Rocky Horror Picture Show, but 50's scifi really did get that ad hoc. XD )


I hate to break it to you, but that's not what this Theory's about :P As much as I'd love to tell you how "Wisdom Energy" works, it would be adding more assumption to an already sketchy-looking Theory.

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For how external stimuli is processed and responded to, or for how awareness arises from these functions? Just a question.


Ahh... AWARENESS is actually something this "energy" might help explain, as that is what we know the least about. Wisdom, knowledge and any other aspect of mind was what I was saying is = to brain. But of course, awareness would be an aspect of that, so here is a *star* for finding yet another of my hidden assumptions. XP XD


But where would the awareness come from? Surroundings?

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But in the submachine world, there could perfectly be a physical law that some form of energy (wisdom energy?) and Shannon entropy are directly proportional by some constant (similar to Boltzmann's, but not dependent on any more variables such as temperature), and some of Rooster's considerations may be true in that scenario. Though I don't see how wisdom energy could be acquired by something as subjective as "learning experiences", it is still perfectly plausible since it's a fictional game, and Mateusz is free to choose any physics he wants for it It could be metaphysics too, as Redafro suggests.


EXACTLY MY POINT XD The Theory wasn't intended to show how Wisdom Energy works, but merely that it exists, in order to explain why we put the Navigator on our head...

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That is true, once we have defined a karma energy we can define a karma force as the derivative of the energy respect to the distance, and viceversa. So portals that lead further away need more energy to be opened. And it is clear that you have to do something to open a portal, so inserting some kind of energy is not unreasonable. But what kind of energy it is, that's a very different issue.


Stupid question: What do you mean by "type" (or I may have misunderstood) of energy? Like Heat Energy?

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But we don't even know how karma works. And keep in mind that the basic concept of relocation doesn't require energy.


True, we don't know, but that's why we are theorizing, not?


This. Just because we don't know how it works shouldn't stop us from reaching the conclusion that it is an energy.

On the issue of staying within the bounds of the Laws of Physics: It's almost a fact that the SubNet makes its own Laws of Physics. Karma Arms defy the Laws of Physics...See my point?

Edit: I don't know about you guys deviating from the discussion, more than my brain trying to figure out the correlations here...XD

I'm not trying to be mean, but that whole discussion's for a different topic ;)


21 Dec 2012 23:06
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